Is liberal feminism even feminism any more?

Firstly, what feminism is: Feminism is a political movement for the emancipation and liberation for all females, regardless of race, class, sexual orientation, reproductive status, disability status, etc.

Secondly, what feminism is not: Feminism is not a catch-all social justice movement (although sometimes areas that affect women do become highlighted). Feminism is not a social club, after school activity at uni, an identity, or a hobby. Feminist is not something you are by virtue of your birth as a female.

While feminism may benefit other members of society (ie males) that is not our primary aim, more of a knock-on effect. This can be seen in the very few countries with a female majority government in combination with feminist principles. In short, all of society benefits from female liberation, disproving the (MRA) lie that a matriarchy is just the reverse of a patriarchy with males becoming the oppressed class.

In the current circumstances of a patriarchy, all men benefit from a system of male domination and female subjugation, whether they like it, or reject it, or not. A very small percentage of males with a social conscience will champion social justice causes, including feminism. This however, does not automatically make them “a feminist”, but a “feminist ally”, in the same way a white person working for black justice is an ally. This is in part because the ally is not part of that oppressed class of persons, and most probably comes from the group oppressing them. Feminist is also an honourific title, reserved for females, because it is the only social justice movement dedicated to females. It is a mark of respect (to the oppressed) to call yourself an ally, rather than appropriate that group’s term for themselves.

Most men however, do nothing towards female liberation, enjoying the privilege of male domination, even if they themselves are not violent enforcers of male domination. There are a small percentage of men dedicated to opposing feminists, and bolstering up the status quo of male domination, and perhaps increase it. These are MRAs, or “male rights activists” but they function more like a terrorist group against feminists. They are the political opposites, or ‘enemies’, of feminists and feminism.

MRAs first turned their attentions, or terror campaigns, onto radical feminists. Because radical feminism is “Feminism Unmodified” (MacKinnon), and makes no excuses for male behaviour and violence. Radical feminism means getting to the root of the problem, not extremeism in the usual sense. The liberal feminists did not worry about this too much, as they disagreed with radical feminism’s unapologetic stance. They only started getting concerned about MRAs when the MRAs began including liberal feminist targets (which in fact, had the liberal feminists perplexed, because they thought they had done everything to be male appeasing).

Liberal feminists are not true feminists in the sense of the word. It is liberalism applied to females—or the left’s politic’s “ladies auxillary”. The liberal feminist agenda is to tinker around the edges and make it “a bit nicer” for women (as the male left do), and leave the exploitative capitalist patriarichal system in place. Radical feminists want to get rid of both those systems, not tinker around the edges.

Because liberal feminists come from a leftist understanding of the world, they cannot seem to understand why, “some bad men do bad things to women and get away with it”. The answer is, this is patriarchy and male supremacy functioning ‘as it should’ (from the patriarchy’s point of view). No amount of appealing to men and be nicer is going to work, the system has to be annihilated, and a feminist-led leadership has to be its replacement.

It appears though, that liberal ‘feminism’ has jumped the shark. They are now condoning violence on other women/feminists, that they” don’t like” or agree with. This by the way, is the opposite of feminism, and is male-supporting, if not MRA-supporting.

Liberal feminists found their ‘in’ to try silence radical feminists. That ‘in’ is transgenderism. Transgenderism is primarily made up of 80%+ ‘male to female’ transgenders (“M2T”, Male to Transgender; because we do not believe that anyone actually changes sex, they change appearance, via cosmetic surgery and drugs). Liberal feminists go well beyond silencing radical feminists, they have been deleting our online comments for years (which I think shows a large degree of insecurity about their politics). Liberal feminists now condone violence against other feminists. They may have tried to get rid of this evidence, but we have it in screencaps.

ETA: After long boring conversation (below), the first screenshot has been amended to obliterate the appearance of Mr Nice Guy “Feminist”, who prefers gaslighting women that he is not threatening them in any way, but will run to WordPress with Male Tears.


EMRA-01  EMRA-02  EMRA-03  EMRA-04

Yes you read that correctly:

Exposing Men’s Rights Activism: Actually, he is attacking Cathy Brennan. Cathy Brennan is a widely known and quite violent transmisogynist who spends her time online harassing trans women and posting their personal information publicly. This page does not support TERFs.

and also:

Exposing Men’s Rights Activism: No. We dislike FeMRAs and MRAs equally.

So, how are you not on the same side as the MRAs, if you condone violence against women/feminists, ultimately because you dislike their politics? Because that is exactly what the MRAs do! Nor would radical feminist ever condone violence against other women/feminists, just because we disagreed with your politics, or ‘disliked’ you personally—that is counter to our beliefs and goals.

It is a complete reversal to attempt to call transgender-critical or radical feminists “FeMRAs” (female MRAs). What fabric of fantasy could lead liberal feminists to think, that women who give males no excuses, and are politically opposite, are on the same side as MRAs?

Liberal feminists, you’ve jumped the shark. Your politics and actions are anti-feminist, and anti-female.

Backtracking a little to today’s censorship of radical feminists, look at the page’s About page:


We are here to expose the hateful lies told by MRA’s under the mask of being “human rights activists” to promote misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic, racist and bigoted rhetoric.

Also be advised. This is not a free speech zone for hateful ideologues known as Men’s Rights Activists or TERF bullshit. You are subject to being banned according to the mood and whim of the admins.

Point out what was supposedly “misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic, racist and bigoted rhetoric”, because there were none. As far as online ‘clashes’ go, this was mild, polite even. Are your politics that fragile? Apparently yes. To completely dismiss radical feminist politics as “TERF bullshit” are the actions of a child, or an MRA. TERF stands for “Transgender Excluding Radical Feminist”, which in itself is inaccurate, we are critical of the practise of transgenderism. We reserve the right to have at least some political and non-political spaces as female-only.

However, quite a number of the male transgenders also behave like MRAs as well (one reason for the ‘exclusion’, nor do we invite MRAs into our spaces either). We have three ‘teams’ all either supporting or threatening violence—MRAs, male transgenders, liberal feminists. And several very small groups of women, radical feminists, gender critical feminists, lesbian feminists, NOT issuing death threats or rape threats to political opponents.

Only members and honourary members of the dominant class can issue credible threats to the oppressed. That is why transwomen issue rape, death, and assault threats to radical feminists. So it is time for everyone to wake up to what is going on. It is time for ‘liberal feminists’ to really examine their politics and their alliances, rather than acting like a bunch of Stockholm Syndromers. Get with the programme, or relinquish the title ‘feminist’.

60 thoughts on “Is liberal feminism even feminism any more?

  1. FEMRAS??? Really? This male created term once again demonstrates how men constantly lie and lie and lie. Yet because men claim whatever they say is the definitive truth we women are expected to believe these male lies. Where oh where is the evidence that innumerable Radical Feminists each and every day are committing violence against men? Oh wait – this is male mansplanning again – because fact is it is males each and every day subjecting women and girls to male violence.

    We know that many women do collude with men in the vain hope of being awarded a few cookies from the menz but those female handmaidens are not Feminists. They are collaborators and the men are using these women to do their dirty work! The Nazis for example had their limitless supply of ‘collaborators’ who foolishly believed that colluding with the Nazis would somehow magically ensure they would not be murdered. But this didn’t happen – once the Nazis had no use for those non-human (sic) dispensable collaborators they too were murdered.

    Feminism is not about pandering to men and maintaining male pseudo sex right to oppress women because their sex is female.

    It is about women’s liberation from male oppression/male domination – nothing more and nothing less which is why men from all ethnicities/races/cultures etc. band together to maintain their male pseudo sex right to oppress and control women.

    Liked by 4 people

    • Thanks for that Hecuba. Yes, the position of being collaborators is becoming more evident, particularly when condoning VAW, the opposite of feminism.

      Yes, I do believe they will outlive their usefulness to whatever male groups they are attached to (and that includes the maleborn-led transgender movement). They may think collaborating will save them, but it will not. The male transgenders have already ‘turned’ upon other males in the LGBT (the drag queens and transsexuals, these being gay males). So appeasing the transgenders will backfire in the long term.

      Most of these libfems are young, they have no sense of herstory when it comes to feminism or even mainstream politics. It might look ‘tough’ to their 20-something buddies to cheer on violence against (other) women—but make no mistake, they do belong to our sex caste of female, and that will become evident sooner or later. No amount of dressing up, calling themselves ‘genderqueer’, or anything else will save them. And certainly not collaborating with a group of males determined to silence feminists.They will eventually turn on these young women too, if those YW dare ‘step out of line’ with the male agenda.

      Radical feminists have an opposing political view to rightwing women—those who are anti-abortion etc—but we NEVER threaten or condone threats against these women, even though they are working against us politically. That would be just crazy, and show insincerity in our politics of being female-centred.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Sigh herstory – meaning womens’ history or rather her story is constantly erased by men which is why innumerable young women believe men’s lies.

        Yes biologically born males who are homosexual are already very, very angry that their biological male bros. (sic) who claim to be ‘women in a male body’ are eagerly ‘throwing their biological bros. under the bus and re-writing homosexual male history in an attempt to take all the glory about male homosexual rights!!’

        I predict biological men will as usual band together and claim ‘you men who pretend to be female can do whatever you wish as long as you don’t attempt to wrest political power and control away from us men. You biologically born males who pretend to be women can have right to threaten real women with male violence; erase women’s lived experiences because none of these issues affect us men.’ The status quo will remain the same with men continuing to oppress women and those biological born males who pretend to be women will be afforded legal right to oppress women and deny women’s lived experiences.

        Oh wait!! – this is already happening.

        No woman is safe from men because no matter how much women appease/support men/deny male oppression over women exists; men will find an excuse to enact their pseudo male right to oppress and punish women.’ Being born a biological female is sufficient reason (excuse/justifcation) for men to claim women are innately to blame because men are never ever accountable! Catch 22 women – you can’t alter your biological sex and you can’t escape male oppression!

        So for the umpteenth time Radical Feminists have never and continue not to condone/justify/excuse threats of violence against biologically born females and this includes women who continue to be mens’ ‘female handmaidens!’

        Liked by 2 people

  2. This was a hastily written thing that I knocked up yesterday afternoon, in response to seeing not only RFs being outrageously censored, but libfems all cooing how violence against other women (just because you don’t like them personally or disagree with their politics) is somehow ok. That is a major losing of the plot to be sure.

    Liberal ‘feminism’ is a watered down afterthought of the lefty (man) politics. It is an uncomfortable fit at best, liberal ‘feminism’ never prioritises females, always has to ask how will it affect men. I have had a growing disrespect for the libfems for some time now, but them being cool with VAW (yanno, one of the prime feminist concerns) is just insane.

    This is why MacKinnon says that radical feminism is feminism unmodified. We make no concern or concession to male feefees (feelings), and our question always prioritises “how will this affect women and girls?”. The world is still a very hostile place for those of us born female, and clearly the liberal notion of ‘equality’ just is not enough to resolve the ongoing misogyny. At best, the notion of ‘equality’ and the proposals to implement it, will only benefit a select few females, meanwhile, nothing really changes for many women and girls. Radical feminism is only ‘radical’ (in the usual sense) because it is the opposite of mainstream (patriarchical) thinking/brainwashing. The mainstream (including lefty politics) will always prioritise the males in any disadvantaged group (eg homelessness), females are the afterthought, if addressed at all. Radical feminism reverses that priority, because no matter what the disadvantaged group, females usually have it worse.

    Liked by 7 people

  3. A bit confused as to why you have a picture of me attached to a conversation about violent threats against Cathy Brennan. I am a pacifist and would not make violent threats toward anyone. This pic was taken a while ago. I now understand that it is not my place to self identify as a “feminist”, but rather as an ally. Sincerely sorry for my former ignorance. I know the “ally” tag is one I need to earn and hollow without concrete actions on my part and am constantly working to educate myself and be a better ally.


    • I did not attach that picture to the thread, that was the thread which degenerated into VAW is a-ok according to Camp Libfem.

      Appreciate that you will now use “ally”. Thank you.


  4. Fair enough. As the picture has no relevance to the conversation on the thread could you please remove my picture from this blog. My pic next to a discussion of a man attacking women strongly implies that I am that man :/ … kind of worrying as you haven’t redacted my facebook username from the pic. Many thanks.


    • I will redact your name from the screenshot, although I do think the horse has bolted (with you commenting here, gives it away somewhat).

      I am not sure who the male ‘feminist ally’ was that was making the threats towards a feminist, I did assume when I went to that thread that it was, or may have been you. I have looked at it again, and it is unclear—it is likely that the page admin had been deleting earlier comments.

      However, in the post I have not stated nor implied it was you, I highlighted the comments of the page admin and a commenter. It is factual, but I have no way of knowing what may have gone on beforehand.


  5. As per “the horse has bolted”, that’s why I would like you to remove the picture please. It adds nothing to the points you are trying to make, it simply gives people a face to associate the allegations with. It was not me who shared the photo to the group in the first place. The only thread with that picture now visible on the page is a very a recent post and only has 2 innocuous comments. Do you have screen grabs of the original thread? I would be interested to see them as I have no recollection of having commented on it, or even being aware my photo had been shared (although my memory is shockingly bad).


    • The link to the thread is above. Most of the comments in the screenshots above have been removed by the page admin.

      Frankly, you are making this all about you. The text of this post does not refer to you. Your image is a thumbnail unless someone clicks on it. People will see that photo anyway if they click on the link to what is left of the original thread/post on facebook.

      The t-shirt you decided to wear is an empty feminist slogan (my personal opinion, but I am a cranky old woman, and getting crankier with this endless convo btw)


      • Well you could try taking the poor guy’s picture down, given he’s not the one who attacked Ms. Brennan. Then maybe you could both enjoy the ending of a vexatious conversation.

        One question about the post overall — was the person who brought up “FEMRAs” talking about Radical Feminists? I didn’t read it that way, but if I’ve followed your train of thought right you may have done. You may not have drawn this conclusion in which case no worries. But if you did I’m not interpreting it that way, but just as a response to the question about women getting a free pass to express MRA views.

        If I’m wrong and that point really was aimed at Radical Feminists then it makes little sense. “Gender critical” or “Trans-Exclusionary” or neither, Radical Feminists are surely not MRAs of any stripe.


      • Actually the point is to spread the propaganda that gender-critical and radical feminists are “FeMRAs”, which is fucking ridiculous, given we were the first targets of MRAs.

        Gender-defending groups (trans and their supporters) pretty much behave in exactly the same way to gender-critical and radical feminists as the MRAs do, it is hard to tell them apart sometimes. It is therefore fairly ridiculous to try to paint radical feminists as “the big bad”, when we threaten nobody. The group of females who actually are behaving LIKE “FeMRAs” are the libfems, condoning violence against other women.

        That does not stop gender-defending groups censoring us. Perhaps because their political arguments are so damned fragile they will not stand up to any criticism? I have no idea, but the way political discussions go with the gender-defenders is somewhere between frathouse and schoolyard bully, in style.

        Liked by 1 person

  6. “I” am making this all about me? YOU attached MY face to accusations of violent misogyny. This isn’t about hurt feefees, if you had merely called me a poopy-head I would have shrugged it off. This could potentially impact my work in schools for The GREAT Initiative (Gender Rights Equality Action Trust).
    I have asked you politely and repeatedly to remove this picture from your blog. disregarding my request is unlawful and unethical. “Fair Usage” does not apply when you are falsely ascribing specific views/actions/affiliations to the subject of a picture, even if it’s just by inference.
    As for “Your image is a thumbnail unless someone clicks on it” … The image is the main image when people link to this blog. Even in thumbnail form I am recognisable to anyone that knows me. I only know about this blog because a friend recognised me from a thumbnail in her facebook sidebar, on her phone.


    • Young man, you can knock off the threatening angry tone with me.

      I had immediately complied with your first request to redact your name. I was considering the situation regarding the image. Some of the reasons it is up there are as an identifier of the facebook thread; a complete and accurate record of that thread just before comments got deleted (ie to prove these were not made up screenshots). These are considerations beyond you. I may consider obliterating your face, but I am not going to be threatened or coerced into decisions, nor will I do anything until I receive an apology for your threatening tone to me.

      As for your “GREAT Initiative” in schools. I will suggest that you and you alone could potentially be sabotaging your own efforts, given the nature of that T-shirt you are wearing. The anarchist/disobedient tone of the t-shirt slogan is not one that endears you to schools. Secondly, what the hell are you teaching them about ‘gender’ (or more accurately, gender roles)? Are you teaching them rubbish about ladybrains and inner gender identities, or that one can genderqueer onesself out of oppression? The latter does not work, and has zero understanding of how the gender caste system works, trying telling black folks to ‘identify’ their way out of racism. It is probably all fairly offensive, given you are not female, nor black. You are a white dude. Yeah, the world really needs white dudes telling oppressed classes/castes how to do it. Your job as an “ally” of any group is NOT to ‘educate’ those groups at all, it is to speak to other white guys and tell them to knock it off with the racism and misogyny. Schools are not the places (as such), but men’s groups.

      Liked by 4 people

  7. You see threats and anger where there is nothing but reasonable annoyance at your disregard for my privacy and for the law. My volunteer work at the great initiative is basically teaching teenage BOYS ‘feminism 101’, getting them to think critically about portrayals of women in the media and challenging their sexist attitudes and behaviours. I thought that was what allies were meant to do? The project I am involved with was concieved, set up and is overseen by feminist women. I would never presume to ‘teach’ a woman “how to do” feminism.

    I have made no mention of my views on “gender critical” theory. You are again making baseless assumptions, straw-manning and generally acting like someone trying to divert the conversation away from their own unethical (not to mention illegal) behaviour.

    I have calmly, reasonably and politely asked you to take my picture down. I have made no threats, accusations, insinuations or insults. I respect your right to your opinions but you have no right to attach my face to vague, unsubstantiated accusations of violent misogyny.

    I’ve asked WordPress to remove the photo now.
    I sincerely wish you a nice life.


    • Fine, I apologise for the misassumption on your school project.

      “I’ve asked WordPress to remove the photo now.”

      Ah, I see. You cannot help it with the institutional male privilege card, can you? Yeah ok, I will “fix” that photo, to reflect the situation.

      You can fuck off now from my blog, you and all your male buddies, whose comments will remain unpublished.

      Liked by 3 people

    • His tone stinks. The privileged caste using the feminist movement to get kudos and cookies, and (apparently) a job!

      The GREAT Initiative. WTF? It would be nice if feminists got a real platform in schools. Why do men get such an easy platform in schools when all they’re doing is copying women’s work. It was women who first began criticizing media images, not men. And yet men are patting themselves on the back for educating youth.

      [goes off to google]

      I’ve just googled them. Their web page is thought stopping and thought limiting in that the word “feminism” is not mentioned although the work they are carrying out *appears* to be in a feminist vein. Which is suspicious to the discerning feminist. Why invisibilize feminism as a political movement. The “research” they are doing into gender equality is nothing that feminists haven’t done before, so they should cite feminism. Otherwise they are erasing women’s work in the movement.

      They also say that men and women are equally in need of, gender equality, when the truth is it’s women.

      “We know gender equality benefits men, women and children alike, that it’s economically smart and socially profitable. Unfortunately massive disparities between men and women persist in every country in the world. Worse, we’re often not sure where or how bad the gaps are, who they’re affecting or how they can be fixed.

      Great supports and conducts vital research in gender equalities to help us fill these information gaps so that everyone can work as effectively as possible to redress the many gender imbalances in the world today. Our Gender Atlas project, to be launched later this year, will pioneer new approaches to measuring gender equality worldwide. We also want to provide a hub for our own and our partners’ research and have gathered some of the essentials together in our Resource Centre to help inform the debate.”

      Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for as much “empowerment” as possible for women, it’s just that we have seen, all too often, imposters posing as people who care about women, when what they’re actually doing is attempting to direct and control the intellectual and monetary resources allocated to women by feminists. They often use double speak in order to cover up the extent of what is going on. Feminist academics are researching the very issues GREAT appears to be looking into. What gives? I don’t get it.

      Liked by 5 people

      • And no “gender equality” if ever such a thing could exist does not benefit men. At all. That’s why men hate feminism. Women want to take back the rights that have been stolen from them, and for that to happen, men have to lose something, for example access to women as wives and prostitutes.

        So no. The premise of GREAT is completely wrong.

        Liked by 5 people

      • Thanks CBL, I concur with your assessment. Full of ‘gender inequality’, but ‘women and girls’ is hardly the focus. Take this stuff, from the ‘Great Men’ page (yes, even the title is offputting, and hey, look at that picture…. anyone we know?)

        In the UK we are currently developing the pilot for a national campaign to engage and involve men and boys in gender equality called Great Men.

        We believe that for equality to be achieved, we all have to be involved in the process of change, women and men together. Throughout our lives boys and girls, women and men experience gender inequality in different ways.

        Kind of missing the boat on what this mysterious ‘gender equality’ is… a hierarchy in which males profit from the subordination of females. But hey, lets make it about how males can *still* get what they want, by being Nice Guys™. At the very best, some sort of watered down, wishywashy ‘feminism’.

        Which reminds me of the Marilyn Frye piece that I linked to in the other thread, relevant here, the first par (my bolding):

        The statement that women are oppressed is frequently met with the claim that men are oppressed too. We hear that oppressing is oppressive to those who oppress as well as those they oppress. Some men cite as evidence of their oppression their much-advertised inability to cry. It is tough, we are told, to be masculine. When the stresses and frustrations of being a man are cited as evidence that oppressors are oppressed by their oppressing, the word “oppression” is being stretched to meaninglessness; it is treated as though its scope includes any and all human experience of limitation or suffering, no matter the cause, degree or consequence. Once such usage has been put over on us, then if ever we deny that any person or group is oppressed, we seem to imply that we think they never suffer and have no feelings. We are accused of insensitivity; even of bigotry. For women, such accusation is particularly intimidating, since sensitivity is one of the few virtues that has been assigned to us. If we are found insensitive, we may fear we have no redeeming traits at all and perhaps are not real women. Thus are we silenced before we begin: the name of our situation drained of meaning and our guilt mechanisms tripped.

        Here is the clue dudes: You do good things, the right things, NOT because you are going to benefit from it, but because it is the right thing to do. Being a more benevolent patriarch does not cut it. I am sure back in the days of slavery there were ‘nice’ slave owners—but the slaves were still slaves.

        Liked by 3 people

      • “We believe that for equality to be achieved, we all have to be involved in the process of change, women and men together. Throughout our lives boys and girls, women and men experience gender inequality in different ways. ”

        Saying men experience gender inequality differently kinda sounds like they actually experience it themselves.
        Whereas the only inference you could draw from that sentence that makes sense is that men’s experience of women’s oppression differs from women’s on experience of being oppressed. Well yes, obviously.

        They’re pedalling backwards, stultifying women’s words and work. This isn’t feminism, but it is using some sort of feminist rhetoric.

        You also get the feeling they believe that women couldn’t possible organize anything for themselves.

        Liked by 3 people

      • They are advertising for at least one paid position for a male. I have not checked to see how many paid positions for females exist, but not holding out much hope.


  8. Didn’t much care about privacy when he let that photo become part of the public domain when it was published on a public FB page. The horse done bolted, indeed.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Yup, he certainly did not even give any thought at all as to how a “feminist as fuck” t-shirt would impact his school project.

      Privilege is never having to worry about the details. But hey, when it does go belly-up, blame the nearest woman!

      I am waiting until the new, altered version of the screenshot propagates across the web. Currently the old version is still showing up, even though I have deleted the original from the files here. I prefer the ‘new and improved’ version anyway.

      Liked by 1 person

  9. Nothing new about men claiming ‘wah we are an oppressed group too!’ One wonders who or what that ‘nameless entity is which oppresses men?’

    Paula Byrne’s book ‘Belle’ mentions the fact white male slave owners claimed the slave industry oppressed white men too because ‘the slave trade degraded both white and black.’ Missing of course was the fact it was white men who instigated the slave trade for the benefit of other white men! Apparently white men didn’t have any agency or choice when they made the choice to enslave non-white women and men!

    Gender equality?? Yes as long as it is one wherein male domination/male oppression is maintained by as usual focusing on mens’ rights and erasing women’s rights!

    Like the picture in that website ‘the great initiative’ – says it all – it is all about males!! Where are the women and girls? Oh they don’t exist because it is all about males as usual.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Paula Byrne’s book ‘Belle’ mentions the fact white male slave owners claimed the slave industry oppressed white men too because ‘the slave trade degraded both white and black.’

      Wow, I did not know that, pretty damned outrageous. They (men) seem to be using the tried and proven method once again.


    • I’m re-reading Gail Dines’ “Pornland” and although I was impressed wtih it the first time I think I’ve been radicalized since then because she’s constantly excusing men throughout it. One of the malepleasing points she keeps making is that pornography degrades men too.

      Well, yes, and no.

      The point of porn is to degrade women.

      The only way you could argue that men are being degraded is by saying that men hurting women and calling women bitches/sluts/worse expletives makes men look like inhumane animals with no empathy. In other words, when women analyze the porn industry, men look like monsters. They don’t like what they see in the mirror and THIS is how men get to claim that porn hurts them too.

      There *is* an argument, I suppose, that men having a light shined on their sadism is slightly embarrassing, or “degrading” to them.

      The mind gymnastics you have to go through to reach the point that “porn hurts men too” is mind-boggling, and yet this has now become a common meme. I see it a lot.

      Liked by 7 people

      • CBL, I think this approach also presupposes PIV being some special spiritual thing between men and women. Porn makes it into something evil and nasty instead, thereby supposedly preventing men from having that experience. RF’s don’t see PIV in this light, however. What is presented as a special spiritual thing is instead trauma bonding for women. A bill of goods women have been sold as romance. Intimacy with an oppressor is not logically possible. Porn is part of the warfare against women.

        Liked by 5 people

      • Hi there Word Woman, welcome.

        I would also change that last bit to “Porn, compulsory PIV and compulsory heterosexuality, is part of the warfare against women.” Many other factors too.

        I am astounded that, by the definition of torture, and many regular acts in porn meeting that definition of torture, that porn could ever be classed as ‘entertainment’. Of course, the only conclusion someone can reach, when porn is cited as ‘entertainment’ is that yes, the vast majority of males are in fact psychopaths lacking empathy. Torture is NOT entertainment, it is evil.

        Liked by 3 people

      • I’m glad to see you back, Davina and Cherryblossomlife! Yes, Davina, compulsory heterosexuality, compulsory piv, and it is TRULY astounding the way porn which is torture is portrayed as “fun” and “entertaining.” It shows the depth of the brainwashing that has gone on that most women barely notice the reality of it, if at all. Surreal and evil.

        Liked by 4 people

      • Hi WW, I didn’t get a “teachy” vibe from your message at all 🙂
        Yes, that’s where Gail Dines is coming from isn’t it.: the assumption that PIV is not only reciprocal, but spiritual, and that porn is therefore corrupting healthy PIV. It’s the idea that men would be having better sex if they understood that there was a gentler way.

        While it is definitely true that the more porn men watch the worse they are in bed, from a woman’s point of view, being clueless about women doesn’t harm men at all, does it? I suppose it holds them up to ridicule slightly. But not really. I mean, if they’re not openly ridiculed and held accountable for NOT KNOWING THAT STICKING THEIR DICK IN A WOMAN WILL GET HER PREGNANT, then they can’t be ridiculed for anything can they!

        The more you peel back the onion layers of what we’re told about intercourse, the more you see whole thing is a complete lie because PIV is just so… loaded with… so many different intents. For example, there’s nothing that makes a man want PIV more than knowing his female partner is not really up for it. There is a presumption or belief that “naice men” are being authentic when they behave as though women’s “beauty and character” is what turns them on and this is why they want to have intercourse with her. But this isn’t true. There’s nothing that makes a man want sex quicker than when he understands that the woman doesn’t particularly want to have sex with him. I’m talking about the nice guys here.

        Women try to look pretty for men, so that men will want to have intercourse with them, is how the narrative goes. Or men prefer sex with beautiful women. But in reality there is absolutely no correlation between a woman’s presentation and whether or not a man (or men) want to fuck her. It depends on so many other factors. It’s as though men peddle the lie that there is a correlation between beauty (read: femininity) and who they fuck so that they can offer up the myth of male integrity. But there is no such correlation. ( I’m quoting Dworkin’s analysis here, by the way!)

        So OMG, if Dines is starting from the point that men in porn just aren’t doing it properly, and could be taught to do PIV better, then she’s misunderstanding PIV in a big way!

        Liked by 4 people

      • Another reason women try to look pretty is to make themselves safe and “get a man” in marriage so they only have to deal with PIV with one man, who will then protect the woman.

        Of course, there is a whole social modeling thing that goes on about how women are supposed to look. Often reinforced by other women. Harm reduction strategies.

        I believe some of the warm fuzzy feelings women have from male “romantic” attention is the idea that the woman can be safe and have a protector. Of course, the statistics tell the lie In reality, the only safety would be another planet, women only.

        Liked by 5 people

      • “The only way you could argue that men are being degraded is by saying that men hurting women and calling women bitches/sluts/worse expletives makes men look like inhumane animals with no empathy.”

        I always thought it was meant to mean that. What else could it mean? It certainly is very degrading to behave in such an immoral way. Although I do wonder why men don’t do more against this dehumanization they’re subjected to by other men.


  10. Cherryblossom sadly Gail Dines is no longer a real feminist. For some years now Dines has been putting men first by claiming pornography harms men and women!

    One wonders who or what created pornography? Oh wait – it is women because if mens’ denials of accountability aren’t working then men always resort to that tried and trusted method – ‘wah it is women’s fault for causing us men to access porn.’

    Wonder what the menz would say if we were to say ‘poor Nazis they couldn’t help themselves murdering millions of women, girls, boys and men.’ Poor Nazis they were sick men who didn’t know what they were doing!

    Pornography is now a ‘public health issue’ according to ‘the wise men’ (sic) in their medical industry, because male viewers of porn mustn’t suffer any sexual dysfunction as a result of avidly viewing pornography! Males must have access to counselling so that men can continue to view porn without their being harmed!! Pornography maintains male pseudo sex right to subject women and girls to sadistic male sexualised violence is irrelevant apparently. Interesting that whilst men claim ‘porn is male sexualised fantasies which has no impact on mens’ real lives then why oh why is porn a ‘public health issue’ for men? Can’t have it both ways boys – or rather men say they can!

    Public health issues were cited by the ‘wise men (sic)’ in UK government when they passed the Contagious Diseases Act in 1864/66 and 69. There are many instances of men initiating ‘public health issues’ to justify male oppression of women. ‘Public health issues’ is latest male red herring which must be added to men’s whine (oops mens’ truth) that men are being oppressed whilst women are enjoying ’empowerment en masse!’

    Can’t recall who said it – ‘the oppressors cannot simultaneously be the oppressed’ but men are oppressed/the oppressors because whatever lies they say it is always mens’ truths!

    Australian school programme is a start but what will happen once those boys leave school and begin socialising with other men who believe women and girls aren’t human? Male peer pressure is one very effective method of maintaining male oppression over females.

    Paula Byrne in her book claims the male sailors working on slave ships were ‘harmed too’ because these men even though they routinely enacted their male pseudo sex right to rape and sexually torture female slaves – it wasn’t mens’ fault! Male sexual sadism just happens – men are never accountable. Some of the sadistic sexual crimes those male sailors and their male captains committed against female slaves are identical to the filmed male sexual violence against women and girls which men avidly view! Nothing new in mens’ world.

    Men do their utmost to hide the myriad ways male domination over women is maintained. Men are oppressed too and Feminism is about equality for everyone – meaning mens’ rights and mens’ issues must always take precedence because male rights are real and important. This is why Feminism as a political movement was created – so that women individually and collectively could focus on mens’ rights and mens’ interests! ( This is a lie but keep repeating the lie and it swiftly becomes accepted as the default truth!).

    Innumerable so-called Feminists are avidly focusing on men and their interests/demands because these pseudo Feminists know that challenging men and their power commonly results in men swiftly retaliating by punishing ‘those women who have dared to challenge male power.’ Proves male power over women is real and not a fantasy!

    Liked by 4 people

    • You’re absolutely right Hecuba. It’s all about accountability.

      It’s so they can avoid accountability for what they’ve done/continue to do.

      Men posit themselves as leaders! Imagine! As spiritual and moral leaders of women! Well, what leaders are supposed to do is take responsibility for their actions and decisions. Have the moral integrity to at least say, “Look, we don’t give a fuck what you women think, or what happens to you. You don’t matter. Our orgasms and “speech” matters. This is what male leadership means.”

      But that would make them look bad in front of the women whose energy they’re sucking at any given moment. So they lead women on a wild goose chases with “Porn is not intrinsically bad, but it hurts men so we MAY be on board with limiting it in some ways.”
      I remember a guy called in when Gail Dines was giving an interview (on Al Jazeera, I think) and he kept saying how hard it was on the men he had to council, and his proposed solution to the porn problem was creating some kind of internet “blocking” function for these poor men so that porn wouldn’t become visible to them. Oh, porn could still be made, as far as he was concerned. There was no problem with women being hurt in porn. But some men didn’t want to be bothered with the whole thing and had the right not to be forced to see it when they logged on. Sure, it would be nice if women and children could fight for that right too hey!

      Liked by 4 people

      • Hi Cherryblossom, yes indeed when issue is about men suddenly issue becomes ‘oh soo important!’ The male who was/is ‘worried’ about porn affecting men demonstrates my point. This male ignores how mens’ porn industry is severely harming all women and girls and I include women working in men’s porn industry, because he doesn’t see women and girls as human.

        His stance is typical – ‘not my problem!’ Men have always banded together when an issue affects them and herstory has innumerable evidence of this fact.

        So we need to remember this and cease ‘pandering to the men’ because they continue to deny world does not revolve around ‘man’ (sic) and his interests; his rights; his demands; his expectations.

        Likewise real Feminists must cease putting mens’ interests first and cease claiming ‘wah issue is about everyone’ because issues are not about ‘everyone.’ Malespeak interprets ‘everyone’ as meaning males since males believe only man (sic) is human and man’s views/interpretations are supposedly definitive truths. Feminism is not about men – it is about womens’ liberation from male oppression. It is that simple but men don’t want this fact to be acknowledged so they constantly create new fake reasons why we Feminists must put men first, second and last.

        When men accept accountability for their actions and oppression of women then I will begin to consider that perhaps, just perhaps men collectively and individually are beginning to change. But we are not at that stage yet – in fact the reverse is happening – men continue to deny their accountability. Reason is because men do not want to give up their power and rights. So we Feminists have to continue our struggle of wresting power out of the hands of men and so it continues. Men continue waging war on women and mens’ pornography industry is mens’ latest political weapon which is being used to justify mens’ claims ‘whatever we men say or act is always right and you women can’t be harmed because you aren’t human!’

        Liked by 3 people

    • Excellent points Hecuba, thanks. I know I don’t often reply to your comments, it is because they usually cover so much ground, there is not much more to add.

      But we will have to teach you how to use the ‘reply’ feature, LOL. There is a reply link on the bottom of the comment you want to reply to (which is harder to find in the last of the nested replies).


      • The last level in the next do not have the button, no. I set my settings to three levels deep (after that, I think it becomes a bit too hard to follow). So, if on that third level, scroll back up to the last comment in the second level and use that button – your reply will then be on the end of that third level.

        Clear?!? LOL, I hope I have explained it!


      • Hi Davina – thank you very much for letting me know about the reply button. I didn’t realise this existed!! Using reply button ensures fluidity and readers can immediately see which post I am replying to and/or furthering the analysis. Unlike the menz I do not know everything and I don’t pretend to know everything!!

        Liked by 1 person

  11. One of the many disgusting things about porn is men’s sick fantasies about what they think lesbianism is. There is a lot of so called lesbian porn where a girl is licking another girl’s anus. Not even bothering to lick her vulva like a normal lesbian but for some reason obsessed with buttholes and “punching” her butthole with her tongue. Men are obsessed with butts, you can’t even avoid anal porn on porn sites because there will be ads and suggestion videos everywhere showing you anal rape. I think the reason is because men are genetic shit and their souls refuse. If they have souls…

    I am really glad to see you back Davina and Cherry. I was a big fan of Cherry’s blog until it went private and I heard you stopped being feminist and starting being an anarchist instead but I never believed it. I too noticed Gail Dines pandering to men. While her cause is worthy, similar to fighting for the Nordic Model on prostitution or for legal abortion and birth control, it sucks to have to pander to men. Reformism is soul sucking, so it’s definitely worth every penny as a job. I wouldn’t do it for free, even though I do, a bit.

    However if I was going to be a “career feminist” it would definitely be for something that could actually make a meaningful difference in women’s lives not some fluffy lightweight gender equality baloney like the asshole waving his dick in this comment section engages in. I like the blog Feminist Current even though there are a lot of problems from a radical feminist viewpoint, it is the first blog I give to women interested in feminism.

    I’m not sure if it was this post or the next one but Davina is of course right about women mostly disregarding what their foremothers warn us about. All my grandmothers (I have 4 wim I consider grandmothers) are totally cool with me not wanting a boyfriend or children, except for my recently born again Catholic grandma. It’s not that she is “not okay” with it but she thinks I should find a “good Catholic man” and that “abortion is murder”. It’s not her fault though because her son pressured her into taking up his Catholic beliefs. I have never had to deal with a religious fundamentalist before and it is uncomfortable. It’s easy to laugh at the ridiculous things they say on the internet but in real life it is kind of scary.

    I am somewhat scared of getting older because I know how much ageism and sexism come together against older women. I guess by then I will have a lifetime experience of being devalued though. I also have a disability I hope will not get worse with age. I was getting mad at a supposedly radical feminist friend on Facebutt saying age “deteriorates” you. That is such a patriarchal vision of ageing.

    I live with a lot of fear especially of getting in a car crash and also of being raped and infected with HIV. I never feared too much like this when I was younger but its all changed. The good thing about radical feminism is you learn the truth, that the biggest danger to women is intimate relations with men and then you can avoid them, maybe not as easily with family but the informed choice to not have a male “partner” (oppressor) and not have babies is true empowerment. Funny this is what liberal feminism tries its best to obstruct.

    Sending you sisterly support.

    Liked by 2 people

      • You’re very right to make the connection to the trannie cult. I should have put a trigger warning for porn violence and was hoping I wouldn’t come off weird with that as the first part of my post but I did venture on a porn site to see how horrid it is. I just felt the need to share after the Gail Dines discussion. Mainstream porn is horrid. I could go into more of the horror but I think we as feminists know to never underestimate the depths of male perversion and sadism. There was one with a woman dresses like a little girl whos asleep in bed and then a man sticks his dick into her sleeping mouth and talks babyish talk to him and he says “you’re having a dream”. Obviously men are turned on by the sexual abuse of girls and the reason young women are considered to be more beautiful is because older women know men’s bullshit too well. Younger women are more easy to take advantage of. That’s all it is. The evo-psych field is so full of justifications for patriarchal bullshit and so slim in critical thinking. Me and my feminist friend who is also a skeptic believe that it is riddled with pseudoscience. The definition of “beauty” changes so much from era to era and culture to culture that it’s ludicrous to say that there is a universal standard of beauty. Evo-psych is backlash against feminism. They say for instance that fuller lips are more beautiful but what about women of certain European descent who naturally have thinner lips? I read that thin lips tend to evolve in colder climates. I’m sure they were not considered ugly in their own traditional Pre-Christian culture. There is a part of the beauty industry to pathologise the features of women of every race, the same features which are celebrated as racial diversity in men.

        Liked by 1 person

      • You might be interested in replying to this for using radical feminist out of context-


    • I was talking to a man online when the subject of anal sex came up and I started to kind of go off on him about it. “Why are you guys so obsessed with this,” I asked. To my surprise, I got a more or less honest answer from him. “We don’t actually think it feels better, we ask to see if women will say yes because we want to see what we can get away with. We’re socially conditioned to try to get away with as much as possible and be giant dicks about it.” So they don’t even like it. They just want to see how far they can push you into doing something they know you won’t like.

      Liked by 2 people

  12. Another reason women try to look pretty is self hatred from internalised patriarchal propaganda. I admit to having this, I would definitely professionally whiten my teeth, get eyebrow electrolysis, permanent hair removal, lip injections because people make fun of my lips because they are so small and more if/when I have the money. It’s sad. My mom says I am not allowed to not shave my legs in the summer, but I don’t think I would be brave enough to go with hairy legs in the summer anyways because we see family and friends in the summer we don’t see much other times of the yr and I don’t want their memory of me to be “gross”. I am also probably going to go back on Accutane even though I know it’s hard on your liver. I remember as a kid I was telling my mom how pretty Anne Hathaway is and how I want to look like her and how does she get so pretty and I was squealing because she was brushing my hair too hard while putting it into braids. My mom said this kind of pain is how beauty happens (or something to that effect). It just stunned me and I stopped talking and fought the pain. Nowadays I never do anything to my hair, just wash and dry. I hate how in regard to shaving, unshaved is considered gross yet shaving actually opens you up to bacteria…what a mindfuck. Body hair protects you from bad bacteria.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. Here endeth the fuzzy saga. Seems he reported it on the grounds of copyright infringement. Looks like they allowed it under ‘news reporting’ (as it formed part of that report? Anyway, he was incidental to the whole thing). The last link in the email is more informative.


    We have received a DMCA notice ( for material published on your site. However, because we believe this to be fair use of the material, we will not be removing it at this time. Section 107 of the copyright law identifies various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered fair, such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research:

    The notice is copied below for your reference.

    Community Guardian
    Automattic |

    Liked by 3 people

  14. I know this is coming in late, but I just wanted to say: Thank you so much for posting this! And also, the comments by my sisters are just amazing! Everything I was thinking or wanted to say was said! Many times I read comments and think “No! No! there’s more to it than just that!”. But this was not the case. Love you for that Sisters!

    Liked by 3 people

  15. Reblogged this on Black Metal Valkyrie: Reject male identified bullshit! and commented:
    “Firstly, what feminism is: Feminism is a political movement for the emancipation and liberation for all females, regardless of race, class, sexual orientation, reproductive status, disability status, etc.

    Secondly, what feminism is not: Feminism is not a catch-all social justice movement (although sometimes areas that affect women do become highlighted). Feminism is not a social club, after school activity at uni, an identity, or a hobby.”
    I quote from this piece CONSTANTLY to define what feminism is. There should be no debate.


  16. Exposing Mens Rights Activism–that is the Facebook page I followed for a couple of weeks, and where I found out, to my bewilderment, that I was a TERF and a SWERF. Then began the sharp learning curve as I realized how widespread this bizarre denial of biological, and women’s, reality, has become.


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